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NO OIL FOR ROCKERS!

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NO OIL FOR ROCKERS!
Started at 04:04pm on the 4th August, 2018 by eolobass
eolobass Subject: NO OIL FOR ROCKERS!
Hello everyone, I have a serious oil circulation problem on my bullet 350 classic (year 2007, km 9000). A few days ago, the oil does not reach rockers, I noticed it by an insistent noise like loose tappets. I disassembled the timing cover, and the worm and spindle oil pumps are perfect, the feed and return pumps are in place, all the clean oil passages, oil feed banjos and rockers holes ok. Only thing, maybe the springs of the pumps are a bit tight. I followed the hitchcock's tech notes step by step. Everything seems fine, but the oil does not reach rockers. Then I mounted a transparent plastic tube instead of the oil feed banjo, and with the engine running, I saw that the oil only comes for a few seconds, then only air ... Can someone help me?
Posted: 04:04pm 4th August, 2018
stinkwheel Subject: NO OIL FOR ROCKERS!
Had you done any work on the bike prior to this happening like an oil or filter change or similar?
Posted: 07:41pm 4th August, 2018
Adrian Subject: NO OIL FOR ROCKERS!
The scavenge/return pump is always as higher capacity than the oil feed pump, so when it is working properly it should be pumping oil and air (or whatever crankcase gases the breather hasn't expelled) once it has cleared any build-up of oil in the sump. You say you checked all the oil ways, did that include the drilled passage to the scavenge drain plug from the bottom of the crankcase?

A.
Posted: 08:04pm 4th August, 2018
eolobass Subject: NO OIL FOR ROCKERS!
Hi,no particular work on the bike. About the drain plug on the bottom of the crankcase,I only check for oil: no oil in the sump drain plug....much oil in the feed drain plug. Tomorrow I ll try to check the drilled passage....if ok, what other check?? thanks
Posted: 08:33pm 4th August, 2018
eolobass Subject: NO OIL FOR ROCKERS!
now that I think about it ... I changed oil and filter, about a month ago ....
Posted: 08:44pm 4th August, 2018
scotty Subject: NO OIL FOR ROCKERS!
Hi had similar prob years ago very poor oil feed to lnlet rocker, was a bodgy solder job where external pipe branches in to two, unsoldered and single pipe was over to one side instead of central new centre piece made and single pipe stopped about 3mm from twin pipes so no block to flow. mate that did it said there were blobs of solder in the pipes.indian manufacture, have to check everything I'm afraid.
Posted: 10:40pm 4th August, 2018
stinkwheel Subject: NO OIL FOR ROCKERS!
That oilway in the sump drain plug is the one I was thinking of too. If you get the washer the wrong thickness, you can obstruct it.

A simple way of checking the feed pump is to take that sump drain plug out and kick the engine over with the sparkplug out. The oil that would have been picked up by the scavenge pump will now drop out of that hole.

Then we get to the helpful bit. If it's being fed in by the feed pump, it must be being pumped back out again because otherwise the crankcase would fill up with oil. So if it's not going up to the rockers, where is it going?

If you wanted to convince yourself further, you could check what volume of oil say 30 kicks pumps into the crankcase then replace the drain plug and detach the rocker banjos. You'll need a good few kicks to prime it then once you start to get oil flow back, see how much comes out of the banjo in 30 kicks. If it's roughly the same, you don't need to worry.

One thing though. How are you checking the oil flow to the rockers? Is it with the engine running? Because it can take an inordinately long time for oil to get up there by simply kicking (I'd estimate around 250 kicks once you start seeing oil at the quill bolt). If you oil the rockers with an oil can, you should be able to start the engine and let it idle for quite some time without any more oil feeding the rockers. Give it at least 3 minutes of idle if you've had the timing side cover off before making any decisions about the oil flow.

One other thing that occurrs to me for now. Did you physically have a look inside the rocker block? The engine I'm currently rebuilding had destroyed its big end. Both rocker blocks were packed solid with white metal filings.
Posted: 11:50pm 4th August, 2018
ric Subject: NO OIL FOR ROCKERS!
Totally dry engine on my 350 required 80 kicks after fitting high flow pumps (and other things).
Posted: 08:37am 5th August, 2018
eolobass Subject: NO OIL FOR ROCKERS!
Hello, today I did this test: I unscrewed the sump drain plug, and without sparkplug, I gave about twenty kicks, and from the hole came out very regularly. Then I reassembled the plug, and I unscrewed the banjo .... but even after 50 kikcs, no oil came out. I reassembled everything, I went for a ride and the situation seems unchanged .... possible that the oil does not reach the rockers? Tomorrow I'll do another test and try to post a video .... As for the rockers, who are okay, I disassembled them and put them back in place. I have also enlarged the holes (3.5mm)
Posted: 01:26pm 5th August, 2018
eolobass Subject: NO OIL FOR ROCKERS!
Dear stinkwheel, can we get in touch via e-mail? so I can send you video of the engine, hoping to solve the situation .... I thank you so much If it's not possible, ok, I'll try to upload the videos here in the forum
Posted: 01:36pm 5th August, 2018
scotty Subject: NO OIL FOR ROCKERS!
Hi another thought undo the union nut where the single rocker feed pipe fits onto crankcase and ease out pipe, if you kick engine over oil should seep out of hole. If you get oil there then you have a blockage in the rocker feed pipe. Have you lapped in the oil pump discs in the timing cover, remember return pump has twice the capacity of feed pump but have to remove timing cover to check, lap pump discs, a simple lapping tool can be made with a bit ofround dowel and a couple of small nails when in wood cut the nail heads off leave 5 to 6 mm to engage pump discs.
Posted: 07:46am 6th August, 2018
stinkwheel Subject: NO OIL FOR ROCKERS!
Over the years, I have found "crowdsourcing" fault finding on motorcycle forums is best. That way other people can add insight and errors can be flagged up. You can upload a video to something like youtube and post the share link here. You can alter privacy settings if you don't want it to appear on a search.

As above, the odd thing is, you have shown the feed pump is feeding oil into the crank/crankcase. If the scavenge isn't picking that oil up, by rights, the crankcase ought to fill up with oil. The only other ways out are onto the ground, into the primary chaincase via the crank seal (it would still need to be filled with oil level with the crank for this to happen) or out through the breather hole (it would be nearly brim full and would probably hydraulic lock).

So. Where is the oil going after it arrives in the crankcase? If you have the answer to that, you have the answer to your issue. Do you have a pressure relief valve fitted that could be malfunctioning?

The test scotty suggests would also be interesting.
Posted: 11:23am 6th August, 2018
mauri Subject: NO OIL FOR ROCKERS!

have you check that the casket, distribution side is correctly aligned.

or is even missing a hole, wouldend be the first time.

Posted: 11:32am 6th August, 2018
eolobass Subject: NO OIL FOR ROCKERS!
Today I dismantled the oil feed banjo, I started the engine and I ran it for a minute at about 1000 rpm ... a drop of oil did not come out of the junction nut ... then I turned off and restarted the engine , at this point about 15/20 cc of oil has come out, then only air. In the chain case oil at the right level, not a drop of oil on the ground, not a drop of oil comes out of the breather .. I don't know what to do! This thing drives me mad. I just do not seize or break the engine, because I use the bike every day, for about 30/40 km. in the next few days I undo everything and do the lapping of the parts, I have also ordered from Hitchcock's lighter springs and a new feed pump. I hope this helps...what do you think?
Posted: 03:33pm 6th August, 2018
vince Subject: NO OIL FOR ROCKERS!
Hi, you may have to prime the return pump. Remove timing cover and fill the pump with oil as you rotate pump spindle. Before refitting cover squirt oil up the return until it appears at rockers. Refit timing cover and start engine. Oil should start flowing if system is operating correctly. Vince.
Posted: 04:42pm 6th August, 2018
p Subject: NO OIL FOR ROCKERS!
The only way for oil to get back to the tank is by route of the rocker feed tube then dribbling down into the oil tank; so unless the tank becomes empty, and assuming oil is going to crankcase then this must be happening. Of course if there is a restriction in either one of the two tubes oil could be returning just via one of the rockers, running with rocker covers off would reveal. I think occasional surges of oil up to rockers may be the norm as the scavenge pump is intended to suck air until sufficient oil collects for it to self prime and pump it. I have seen a clear tappet cover advertised, I suppose you could see the oil running down through one to confirm circulation, as you may, rather messily, by whipping standard one off whilst engine running. In the absence of any other symptoms I am wondering if in fact your lubrication is working as intended... Maybe there's some other reason for your sudden noisy valves?
Posted: 07:59am 7th August, 2018
eolobass Subject: NO OIL FOR ROCKERS!
hello, thanks to all for the precious indications. Today, with the engine running, I loosen (1- 1/5 turn) the quill feed bolt, and the oil comes out well. I also filled the banjo feed with oil, through the hole in the crankcase. Maybe the oil gets to the rockers in a discontinuous way, however the noise always feels. The tappets and valves are OK, and I do not know what else it can be. Some time ago, opening the covers of rockers, I always saw a lot of oil. Now I see very little. As I said, I will perform a thorough inspection of the parts, including lapping. Then I will keep you informed about developments ...
Posted: 03:49pm 7th August, 2018

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