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Can someone explain the electric start system?

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Can someone explain the electric start system?
Started at 12:43am on the 7th October, 2018 by StogieRob
StogieRob Subject: Can someone explain the electric start system?
I know this sounds odd, but could someone explain the starter system and it's components from one end to the other? I've a 2008 Classic 500 5-speed. working on converting it to a more 40's/50's look. I needed to repaint the toolboxes, so i've disconnected all of the electrics that were in the left side toolbox. I've already removed the turn signal lights, and had been contemplating removing all of the electrics for the turn signals as well. Now that I've got all of that wire nest out, I was wondering what else I might remove at this time. One of the negative images of the modern bike is the obvious items under the seat. Thanks! Rob
Posted: 12:43am 7th October, 2018
ric Subject: Can someone explain the electric start system?
Remove the indicator stalks for 364 days of the year but keep all the electrics in place for them, your bike is young enough to fail its MOT if they’re not fitted and working on the 365th day. There are some very discreet designs available if you want something less obvious.
Posted: 03:54pm 7th October, 2018
stinkwheel Subject: Can someone explain the electric start system?
The only way you'll get an MOT with no flashers on a 2008 bike is if it has a single seat and has been "Modified for off road use". SO if it's a single seat trials/scrambler with knobbly tyres, you'll get away with it, but I would still expect a degree of arguing the toss with the tester unless they are well up on MOTing trials bikes. You also need the rear brake light switch for the MOT which was also in the LHS toolbox.

I take my flashers off most of the time but I still have to put them back on again for the MOT. I have fitted it with jack plugs so it can be done quickly and easily.

Our hosts supply a cover for the under-seat electrics. http://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/Electrics-Cover-seats

On the bike I just built, I'm using a pod filter so I've hidden most of the electrics in the air filter "tea caddy". This was no mean feat. The reg rec still needs to be out in the airflow for cooling purposes, regardless of where you move it to.
Posted: 04:59pm 7th October, 2018
Exile Subject: Can someone explain the electric start system?
Uhhmmm... been reading this and none of what I read reflects on the title of the original post. Quote: "Can someone explain the electric start system?".
So I'll have go...

How the electric start works.

You press a button. The bike starts.

So glad we sorted that out... :-)
Posted: 05:34pm 7th October, 2018
papasmurf Subject: Can someone explain the electric start system?
Press the button and it starts? You must be joking.
Posted: 06:09pm 7th October, 2018
StogieRob Subject: Can someone explain the electric start system?
Hi all - OP here - i live in the US, so annual inspections are at the whim of what state I choose to live in. Right now, i'm far enough outside of Chicago and the surrounding counties that I don't have to deal directly with their idiocy. AND it is essentially for off-road only use. i'm making it work for WWII reenacting and I don't care about street legal. If I move to another state, i could be screwed. so what are the pieces to the system? there are two silver vented boxes under the seat that stick out like sore thumbs when going for the retro look. i'm also thinking that the aren't heat sensitive, so painting them might be an option. I just want to simplfy the look of the bike. Thanks! StogieRob
Posted: 07:40pm 7th October, 2018
stinkwheel Subject: Can someone explain the electric start system?
How the electric start works then. You turn on the key. This sends power to the right hand switch gear, the kill switch is ON which routes power to the starter button.

You push the starter button, this sends power to the starter solenoid which is a type of high power relay. On the other side of the solenoid are two "idiot switches" which allow the solenoid to connect to earth. One is the clutch switch which allows an earth connection when the clutch is pulled in. The other is the neutral switch which allows an earth connection when the bike is in neutral.

So the switchgear is powered up. You've pressed the starter button that sends power to the solenoid. The bike is either in neutral or the clutch is pulled in which allows the solenoid circuit to be connected to earth. The electronagnet in the solenoid powers up, you hear a "click" as the solenoid pulls a high current switch closed, this makes a direct contact between the battery positive and the starter motor. The starter motor turns. If you're lucky, this engages the sprag clutch with the crank and turns the engine over.

There is a whole heap of other electronic stuff happening on the ignition side at the same time as the engine is turning to make the spark a) Happen. b) Happen at the right time and c) Not happen immediately.
Posted: 07:53pm 7th October, 2018
Wheaters Subject: Can someone explain the electric start system?
I'm quite glad my own Enfield "Bullet Electra" was designed only with a kick-start.... ...and no distributor.
Posted: 08:21pm 7th October, 2018
Adrian Subject: Can someone explain the electric start system?
You must have an earlier one, the later Indian home-market Electra 350s did finally receive electric start too.

A.
Posted: 09:00pm 7th October, 2018
Wheaters Subject: Can someone explain the electric start system?
My 350 was made in 2004.
Posted: 11:39pm 7th October, 2018
StogieRob Subject: Can someone explain the electric start system?
Stinkwheel - that was perfect! so using this link to the switches and fitments page for what is as close to my bike as I can find.... http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbooks/pages/4858/Switches_and_Fitments #26 Auto-starter cutoff is the device that connects to the clutch and neutral (and possibly the kickstand) to prevent the e-start from being used if those three conditions are not satisfied #27 Starter Relay is between the battery and the starter (wild guess on actual electrical location, but the terminals are big enough) and my guess is that it is also the solenoid #7 Regulator Cum Rectifier E-Start Only - These are the two items under the seat that make the bike look 'new'. What are these item's role in the equation? Thanks!!! StogieRob
Posted: 12:26am 8th October, 2018
ric Subject: Can someone explain the electric start system?
I imagine the finned items under the seat are the separate (connected) regulator and rectifier units. These could be replaced with the later single combined unit and repositioned somewhere less intrusive but still well ventilated. I repositioned mine onto the rear of the tool box. This acts as a heat sink for the unit which also benefits from additional cooling from air turbulence created by the rear wheel.
Posted: 08:41am 8th October, 2018
papasmurf Subject: Can someone explain the electric start system?
Does any of the wiring look leke this:- http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbooks/pages/2589/Switches_And_Electrical_Fitments
Posted: 10:13am 8th October, 2018
Adrian Subject: Can someone explain the electric start system?
For the home team's ease of reference, StogieRob's bike is the AVL Classic (in military green), which is a USA-only model - think Electra-X engine and electrics in a Sixty-5's rolling chassis.>br>
For WWII re-enactments it's worth noting that NO British army bike would have had electric start, kick start only!

The under-seat components on the Electra-X would be the reg-rectifier, TCI black or green box and indicator/flasher unit. As ric says you could relocate this stuff, and you could also fit a dummy Lucas CVC (voltage control) box under the seat as the dynamo-fitted old bikes would have had. Speaking of seats, I assume you will be replacing the dual seat with a sprung saddle if you haven't already done so, something like our hosts' part number 200081A looks appropriate.

I do wonder if this bike ought to be kept street-legal, you could always buy a BSA M20 for re-enactments. I know there are some in the USA. A.
Posted: 11:05am 8th October, 2018
stinkwheel Subject: Can someone explain the electric start system?
As above, the regulator/rectifier is nothing to do with the electric start as such. It converts the AC output from the regulator to 14v DC to charge the battery as the bike rides along.

Again, as above, you can move them but they do need a reasonable airflow as they dump excess power as heat (hence the cooling vanes). It helps if they are exposed to airflow and are bolted to something metal (to assist heat-sinking). Probably good if they don't have too much exposure to water too.

Depending on available space, you might be able to bolt them to the back of that fixed section of rear mudguard near the ignition coil or even to the back of the tea-caddy.

Yes, starter relay and solenoid are effectively an interchangeable term. There is a technical difference between how the switch moves inside a relay and a solenoid but in use, it makes no difference.
Posted: 04:27pm 8th October, 2018
StogieRob Subject: Can someone explain the electric start system?
I just noticed that the formatting of my post had all of the spaces removed. Not sure why... Anyway, in no particular order for the replies PapaSmurf - my electrics and fitments look like this - http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbooks/pages/4858/Switches_and_Fitments. I’ve been in touch with Richard at HMC (the wonderful hosts of this board) and even he’s not really sure what model I have. It’s like an early 00 AVL with front drum brake, but not completely. I’ve just accepted it and cross reference to other bikes when necessary. Even my VIN doesn’t make sense as it says it’s a “Classic 500 or a Sixty-S”. And yes, that’s an S not a 5. Adrian - Thanks! I never occurred to me until this post that the majority of the audience were Brits. Foolishness on my part as it’s a brit bike. Hell, i’d rather bein the UK (anywhere in the UK) riding the bike than here in the US. We do our part to uphold the honor of the brits when we do our reenactments. I’ve got RAF (including someone who does 311/312 Squadron Polish/RAF) friends, Hampshire Regiment friends, Home Guard, WLA, QUAIMS, 41RM, Scots/Welsh Guards, RAMC, RASC, etc... I reenact 5th Bn Coldstream Guards. So the rectifier/regulator need to stay in place for a while longer. Ah well. Right now, only the turn signals are off the bike, so it’s an easy refit to make it street legal again. I had a ‘42 BSA M20 for $6000 within 15 minutes of my house, but the budget just wasn’t there. There’s a 1999 RE with right side shift (the proper location!) within 3 hrs of my location right now. Gorgeous chrome and red paint scheme. The wife even suggested that I sell this one and buy one with the right hand shift since it’s much more correct for reproducing a ‘42 RE WD/CO. I’ve just finished repainting the tool boxes and license plate mount. Once I get the thing reassembled, I probably will post it for sale and see who bites. While it might break someone’s heart to paint chrome and red to british WWII green, i’ve discovered that rattle cans don’t make for a completely shitty paint job when going for the ‘beat up military look’. And I already have a solo seat, so that looks right. Arguing with myself over a pillion seat or skipping it and just getting the panniers. No need for a pillion going into ‘battle’ and the ladies won’t ride anything but a sidecar as that would be VERY unladylike in a 1940’s dress. I’m not getting a sidecar as that spoils my fun bashing about on two wheels. Thanks ALL!!! Today is bike reassembly day! StogieRob
Posted: 08:27pm 8th October, 2018
StogieRob Subject: Can someone explain the electric start system?
Wiped out all my formatting again! Damn...
Posted: 08:28pm 8th October, 2018
stinkwheel Subject: Can someone explain the electric start system?
I don't know about the US but in the British Army, painting vehicles is usually a punishment fatigue (for when you've screwed up, but not badly enough to have to whitewash the coal heap). So "genuine" military paint is pretty much as rough as is humanly possible to achieve when done outdoors with a can of 20 year old, badly stirred NATO paint and a fossilised brush by someone who would otherwise be down in the mess with his mates if only he hadn't forgottent to flip the dust cover up over his rifle breach.
Posted: 08:49pm 8th October, 2018
Scalyback Subject: Can someone explain the electric start system?
Toilet brush. That's what we got to paint army vehicles. It helped that 'matt' finish as well!
Posted: 09:26pm 8th October, 2018
Scalyback Subject: Can someone explain the electric start system?
Stinkwheel, YES, or hadn't forgotten to switch the rifle change lever to single shot on the range instead of letting all five rounds off on automatic! That got you some problems with the sergeant!
Posted: 09:28pm 8th October, 2018

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